How to Engage your Audience through Gamification with Mary Nunaley – ep 64

Join Mary Nunaley and me and discover “How to Engage your Audience through Gamification”

📢 Mary and her son Amadeus co-founded the Lavender Dragon Team in 2018. Mary is a Master Instructional Designer, Thinkific Expert, and Gamification Aficionado along with being an award winning course creator.

When not behind the computer, you can find Mary checking out cemeteries, reading, or hanging out with the family, including her four felines.

👉 To get Access to Mary’s Gift, Gamify Your Lead Magnet eBook, visit https://mostafahoss–


  • Gamification is more than just points, badges, and leaderboards.
  • It’s about creating a strategy that incorporates fun and engagement for your audience.
  • Gamification can be a more broad-based strategy that incorporates various game elements.
  • Business goals and audience motivation are important to consider when implementing gamification.
  • Gamification can improve engagement and enjoyment for your audience.


We are pleased to provide these show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who prefer to read.

Please note that this is an automated transcription and may contain errors.


Mostafa Hosseini  0:02 

My name is Mostafa Hosseini, your host for this show at daily confidence we share tips, strategies and actionable advice that you could use to boost your confidence confidence around different areas of your business on a daily basis.

We talk about topics such as mindset, sales and marketing, strategy, finances, dealing with people hiring, firing, you know, you name it, there’s so many different areas in business, and we need to have confidence in different areas. And that’s what we talk about. I have an amazing guest today. Mary nunley. Welcome, Mary.


Mary Nunaley 0:40 

Hi, thanks for having me on the show Mostafa.


Mostafa Hosseini  0:42 

Great to have you on today, we’re talking about how to engage your audience through gamification. This is a very interesting topic. So stick around and hang out, tune in, listen to the whole conversation if you’re listening or watching this later, as is actually one of my favorite topics. Because it’s important, and here’s why.

A lot of people have audiences and lists and the engagement on list is very low or none. So what we’re going to talk about today makes a massive difference. So stick around if you want to make a difference out there. And so before I forget, please make sure to like and subscribe to our channel. If you’re on YouTube. If you’re on Facebook, follow the show.

If you have comments, questions, feedback, during the show live before we’re after the show, put it in a comment or in the chat box and we’ll get back to you. If you know a friend who could benefit from the conversation that we’re having or the topic, tag them in a comment and make sure that they see what we’re talking about here. And we have an amazing gift coming up Nereus sharing a gift with you which we’re going to share with you at the end of the show.

And as usual, what we specialize in is in his one page marketing plans for coaches, consultants, experts, and rest of the crowd authors speakers. So if you want to create an implement your one page marketing plan, I’m going to leave the link in the descriptions of the show. So you can go check out the upcoming dates and join us live and do that. So let me do the proper introduction for Mary and we’re going to get into a very interesting conversation.

Now No, Mary and her son Amadeus co founded co founded the lavender Dragon team in 2018. Mary is a master instructional designer, Thinkific expert and gamification afficionado along with being an award winning course creator. When not behind a computer, we can find Mary chicken cemeteries reading or hanging out with the family including her for felines, aka cats. Welcome, Kim. Mary.


Mary Nunaley 2:57 

Thank you for having me. It’s my great


Mostafa Hosseini  3:01 

match. Match the same brilliant, great to see a Mitch. Aha. Joining us Mitch Ruffo. So, Mary, what what is your story? What is the story behind what you’re doing these days?


Mary Nunaley 3:16 

So great question. Um, I am one of those people who’ve never settled on a solid career. So my first career and love is the food and beverage world. So I’ve managed restaurants work for major hotels, all of that. Part of the gamification piece that we’re going to talk about, though, was do something I was doing long before it was even a word. And that was making sure that my team was engaged in having fun at their job.

So I would do things like run up behind them back in the days when their little pizza guy would go Pizza pizza, and I’d run up behind him and go coffee, coffee, because we had a rush of people for breakfast at the coffee shop, and we got to get them in and out the door. So it’s like how do you make the job fun. Then I spent time in higher education.

I ran a hotel restaurant management program at a community college, and I was the campus instructional designer helping faculty make their courses better online. Then I went back to the corporate world and I managed a team of designers. Then I decided to start my own business. And that was in 2018.

And I was originally just going to be a freelancer picking up projects when I felt like it because my partner had just retired after 30 years of teaching. And my son came home from work one day and said, Mom, I just quit my job. I want to join the family business. And my first response was what family business followed by a holy cow, we need to make this work.

You’ve got $100,000 in college student loan debt that needs to be paid off.


Mostafa Hosseini  4:41 

We need to figure that out.


Mary Nunaley 4:42 

So we had to figure it out. But from there, we really find out what our passion is both Amadeus and I are gamers. He does more computer games and Dungeons and Dragons role playing games. I’m more tabletop and role playing and why that’s important is the systems and strategies that You learn playing games as a child come back when you’re talking about gamification and making more engaging fun content for your audiences.

So that is the very short version of my story.


Mostafa Hosseini  5:12 

Very nice. Well, it looks like you’ve got a pretty diverse background. And definitely, I can’t wait to tap further into what you’re doing. Learn more about you. And so what do you do now? And who do you serve?


Mary Nunaley 5:24 

So great question. We work with clients that are either small businesses that are trying to build their courses online. And we also work with a lot of food and beverage related companies that are trying to make their training more fun and more enjoyable, and more consistent. And after the pandemic, and 2020, we learned that diversifying was a good thing.

So having an issue is good, but having some diversity is even better. So that if one side of the business is starting to go, ah, you’ve got something else. But through all of it, we like to incorporate that sense of playfulness and fun.


Mostafa Hosseini  5:59 

Very nice. Very nice. So what do you mean by gamification for those of us who don’t understand what you mean?


Mary Nunaley 6:09 

Certainly. So let me start out by saying what gamification is not to me. And for me, gamification is not just points, badges and leaderboards, which is what we frequently see in business, it’s like, oh, we’re going to gamify, let’s have points, let’s give our you know, our learners badges. Now we’re going to have a leaderboard. that’s effective for small amount of people.

But that’s not really the whole gamification, gamification to me is creating a strategy that brings in game elephant elements, that provides a playful, engaging experience to your audience.

So it might be, you know, a timer like limited time offer, because there’s that sense of urgency, it might be an Easter egg, like, Oh, if you get this far, click this link, and boom, you get some bonus content that’s hidden, it might be a collection mission, where it’s like, collect these four lead magnets, except we don’t call them lead magnets, because our customers don’t know what that means.

But you know, collect these four things and turn them in for a prize. So for me, gamification is a more broad based strategy that incorporates fun, and getting the action from your audience that you want them to take.


Mostafa Hosseini  7:20 

Very interesting. So you could have a leaderboard, you could have click here to see more. And then people may be collecting points. And then for different, I guess, at the end of the day, correct me if I’m wrong, are people getting rewarded for what they do? access to certain things? Or is that just a small fraction of the whole piece?


Mary Nunaley 7:42 

So that’s a small fraction. When you think about it as a journey, you want to think about what are your business goals, first of all? And then who is your audience? Or if you want to put it in game or talk? Who are the players?

From there? What motivates them? What do you want to do? What action do you want them to take? And then how are you going to reward them for taking that action. So if you think of it as a journey, so the leaderboard might be that end result, you’re going to reward them with a leaderboard.

And if your spots one through five, you get a prize, or you’re going to reward them because they clicked on a link. And just because they read through your 15, page PDF, and they clicked on the link, a little video pops up with some surprise, bonus content, much like if you think about like a Marvel movie, there’s always like, if you wait till after the credits, there’s always a surprise at the end.

And those people that are in the know, know, to wait until the end of the movie and watch the credits, because there’s always going to be some kind of fun snarky little video. So how do you put that into your content?


Mostafa Hosseini  8:45 

And I think we did a bit of gamification here. When we started and say here at the end, we’re going to share a gift with you. Exactly. A bit of a game here, I guess.


Mary Nunaley 8:54 

Yes, sort of now, what would really make a gamified? Is if we said, everybody who responds at the 15 minute mark with a question will get this special thing, because now we’re all creating a sense of urgency. We’re asking them to take action, and we’re rewarding them for taking action.


Mostafa Hosseini  9:15 

Beautiful. That’s a great one. So I’m going to put down respond at a certain time, certain time, beautiful. Now, going back to what motivates them, how do you figure out what motivates a crowd? Is it do you need to sit down and think about it? Do you need to test it? Do you need to ask them? How do you go about it?


Mary Nunaley 9:40 

So the answer is yes.


Mostafa Hosseini  9:42 

Yes, yes. Yes. And yes.


Mary Nunaley 9:44 

So yeah, the first thing you want to do is it’s just like in marketing, where we’re taught to figure out who our buyer persona is, you know, who is our target audience, and what are they like, what do they like? What is their problem?

 See, apply that same type of question. Sona to your gamified offering, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve and what’s going to motivate them. So if I’m a busy single mom who’s looking for a quick, healthy dinner, then I’m probably not going to create a game around by these gourmet ingredients, spend 45 minutes chopping and prepping, I’m going to create some type of an X action or activity, it’s like, great, click this link, and I’m going to send you five recipes for five, five ingredient meals that you can prepare in 10 minutes or less.

Okay, so that’s the first thing. The second one is ask your audience, what motivates you? What do you like? What don’t you like? And then the third one is, is it’s going to be doing some testing and I I’m a strong advocate of AV testing, have, we got this version In this version, which one was more well received by the audience?

And also, which version had the best results for what I was looking for? So when you’re, whether it’s marketing, gamification, whatever, you need to know what that end result is that you desire? Because you can’t measure what you don’t know what you’re measuring?


Mostafa Hosseini  11:10 

Very interesting. One question that I’ve put out there, and I’ve got some really good responses is what do you hate about x? And I get some really good responses to that. What do you like about it? What do you dislike about it? I really like that.

 And then that would that will tell you like, if people tell you what they hate about something, you know, there’s some motivation in there. Exactly. And then what do you really like or enjoy about this other would be the other aspect of it.


Mary Nunaley 11:36 

Yes. And then the other thing to think about is, and I don’t want to make this come across as a bad thing, but like, what buttons are you trying to push? So if you think about the movies, somebody who likes romantic comedies?

Well, they’re going because they want that like big, emotional, you know, oh, the girl, you know, the girl gets the guy at the end, or, you know, they ride off into sunset or whatever. They’re probably not the right audience for an action adventure movie. And so it’s, it’s, you know, what’s what’s motivating them?

Do they have like this, like, I want to change the world, I work with a lot of authors and healers and things like that? Well, their motivation is they’ve got this epic calling of I want to change the world. And if I come in with something about, well, it’s about who, how many of your friends can like your posts and do this and do that. They’re just like, I don’t care about that. I just want to change the world. So finding out what that is, can help you design the experience.


Mostafa Hosseini  12:34 

Very nice. So you share it with me a document that shows different categories of gamification that was blown away Wild West. To me, gamification, like you said, is like get a point, get a gift, you know, do a backflip, and I give you


Speaker 3  12:53 

lucky or you know, I’m right, yes. And so


Mostafa Hosseini  12:57 

can you share with us some categories of gamification because of what you shared with me. I’ve been in marketing for a long time, and I still had no clue what those categories were about. So can you share with us? And our audience? What some some of those categories, please?


Mary Nunaley 13:15 

Sure. So just to kind of preface this, I follow you Kai Chows, actionable gamification theory. So if you really want to dive deep, I would go read his book, actionable gamification. It’s like, I don’t know three 400 page books.

So you really want to get into the nitty gritty. But when you think about it, you’ve got eight core drives that drive most people, whether it’s epic, meaning and calling, whether it’s a sense of urgency, whether it’s social acceptance, like I’m doing this, because my friends are doing this.

And within each of those, there are certain game elements that are more appealing. So epic meaning and calling that might be, hey, help me share this summit that I’m, I’m putting together because it’s all about how do we change life. And for the folks that are really attracted by Epic meaning and calling, that leaderboard may appeal to them then because it’s like, ooh, now I’m changing 150 people’s lives because they’re attending the summit.

Mm hmm. Other people like that sense of adventure. So those spinning wheels that you can do online, it’s that sense of chance. That’s another gamification element, hey, respond to this email by 12 o’clock, midnight on such and such a date, sense of urgency gamification element out, your name will go into a drawing.

Yep, for x. That’s that. Get that that’s chance element. And so now you’ve got two gamified elements, and it’s not really costing you anything.


Mostafa Hosseini  14:46 

Nice. Nice, nice. Can you share with us some stats, in fact, figure fact figures about before and after we give gamification


Mary Nunaley 15:00 

Whew, that one’s a little harder, um, if gamification is done well. And you’ve really thought out your strategy, you can see significant increases in customer engagement or learner engagement. I’ve seen some folks have results in the 50 to 60% improvement in engagement.

Okay, if you look at, let’s say, an online class, that is gamified, not just with points, you will typically see even with the points in the badges, you’ll see an improvement in retention and completion, somewhere in the 10 to 20% range.

If you’ve got a really cohesive strategy, you may see that you’ve got, you know, 3040 50% of the learners sticking with you because you’re tapping into their desire to succeed, and rewarding them consistently for taking action. And that’s the key thing. And it’s not just like digital confetti.


Mostafa Hosseini  15:58 

Absolutely. So what would be some of the main areas that people should definitely gamify? Okay, we’re in a, in a coaching business, in a consulting business and the rest of it.


Mary Nunaley 16:13 

So I would say, if I was in the coaching business, and I had an online course or courses, I would definitely look at gamifying those and about what’s the desired result. If I am in a coaching or consulting business, looking at gamifying, your newsletter or your emails, alright, good one, that you build a consistent strategy, though, it’s all about building a strategy.

So it’s like if you think about playing a game, usually sit down to play a game of Monopoly without knowing the rules. And so you want to make sure that you’re very clear on the rules. And if there is a prize or something to be won, you’re also very clear with your audience about what it’s going to take to get that.

So it’s just like being in school, how did I get my grades, I just threw the papers on the stairs. And if you landed on this stair, you were an A, and if you landed on this day, you were an AF. There’s no rhyme or reason to it. But if I have a clearly defined set of rules, this is what an AE looks like. This is what a B looks like. The students know and they can kind of choose their own adventure.


Mostafa Hosseini  17:18 

Very interesting.


Mary Nunaley 17:20 

And lead magnets lead magnets are another part that can be interactive and gamified. To an extent.


Mostafa Hosseini  17:27 

That’s what attracted me to you in the first place. Tell us more about that. How to What do you mean by him find lead magnets and and why?


Mary Nunaley 17:36 

Sure. So first of all, creating an interactive lead magnet is very powerful. So many people are familiar with quiz funnels. That’s, that’s a level of interactivity, you’re answering questions, you’re doing something, it’s not passive lead magnet to an even a next level, where it’s more of a game, or even just an interactive image, where people can click based on what they’re interested in.

So if I wanted to learn more about your simple marketing formula, perhaps it’s a one page interactive image that’s a stressed out person in an office. And there’s like six little text bubbles that are clickable, I want to learn about my target audience, I want to learn about my revenue I want to learn about, I may decide to visit all of them, I may decide that I only want to learn about this one thing.

When you click on it, you’ve taken an action, and then boom, up pops a little 32nd video, or some text with a picture. And then from there, there’s a link that takes them to book a call or sign up for a workshop or learn more same information you put in that boring PDF. Now it’s more interactive, I’m also able to pick and choose what works for me.

Mm hmm. And so not only as the audience, I get some choice, but as the business owner, I can start looking at where am I getting the most clicks from? It’s like, because you can put it in is like a mail too with a subject line that says mail to I want to learn more about my revenue. Well, now you’re going to know that that’s a hot topic. So build some more lead magnets around that gamify it then you take it up a further level. And you maybe have three or four of these lead magnets. And you have a little picture or QR code on the bottom of all of them. And you say scan these, it’s a collection set. When you collect all three, it opens up to a webpage that unlocks maybe a bonus to your workshop or a discount or something like that. Again, you know, your audience is engaged because they’ve scanned all three QR codes. And it’s like, Oh, these are really serious people versus a casual looker.


Mostafa Hosseini  19:48 

Absolutely. I love those examples. One of the things that we have done, and I think this is like very basic gamification was we did a draw for an Amazon card at our live event and people had to be there to receive it. It really is even even in Psych one if it’s like five or $10 people absolutely loved it. Yeah.


Mary Nunaley 20:09 

Because it’s appealing to that sense of chance and risk. But it’s also tapping into that whole social acceptance. Because it’s like, oh, I’m here with my friends. I won, you know? And it’s like, yeah, yes, yeah.


Mostafa Hosseini  20:20 

Even if it’s like small money, it still doesn’t matter. People absolutely love it, then they just go.


Mary Nunaley 20:26 

That’s doesn’t have to be this big, expensive thing. It doesn’t have to be Yeah, you just have to think it through. And so I’m going to ask you a question then about that giveaway? Sure. Is, was it because it was important for you that people were in the room at that specific time?

 Or was it just because it sounded good, like saying, Oh, you need to be in the room to win.


Mostafa Hosseini  20:50 

We wanted to them to be there all the time. And we said, we’re going to do random draws on announced times, and you have to be there to, to, to win it. Because it’s a for me, it’s a three day weekend at simple marketing formula.

They have to be there all the time, because we teach really important stuff for three days. And it’s not like I want to miss day one. And I’m going to show up on day two, and I want to take only an hour of it and see what it feels like. So we were just trying to encourage them to be there. Yeah. So that’s,


Mary Nunaley 21:23 

that’s a really perfect example, then, because you had a very specific action you wanted your audience to take, which is be here, you’re going to be rewarded because our contents important to you. And you’ve got this sense of chance, because nobody knows who’s going to win. So it’s like, Ooh, I really want that gift card.

I’m going to make sure I’m in the room all the time. So yes, that’s an excellent gamification example. I’ve seen other folks just say, oh, yeah, we’re just gonna randomly give away gift cards, but there’s no rhyme or reason behind it. And so it’s kind of fun to win. But it’s not adding value to your business. What do you mean?

 So like, if I just say, Oh, I’m just going to randomly draw, it doesn’t matter. You know, I’m just going to, you know, at nine o’clock, I’m going to pick a name out of the hat, and you’re gonna want a gift card. But it’s there’s not any major content that I’m trying to share or anything like that. I’m just going, oh, yeah, I like to give stuff away. Got it. That’s not driving impact to my business. I’m


Mostafa Hosseini  22:22 

motivated. Yeah, it’s


Mary Nunaley 22:22 

not motive. It’s like, okay, great. So I got a gift card. So what, versus you had a very specific, we want you in the room, it’s important, we’re going to reward you for being here? Because you might win something? Absolutely.


Mostafa Hosseini  22:35 

Would you add more than one gamification into an event? Like, what’s the maximum number of games we could play in a three day event before? It turns childish?


Mary Nunaley 22:51 

No, I mean, that’s a really good question. And the answer to that is, it really is going to depend. So you have to think about why are you adding this game? Or why are you doing this activity? And how is it going to make the event better? Got it.

So you may decide that you’re going to do a game at the start and the end of every day? As a warm up? What did we learn? Who are you? What did we learn yesterday? And then at the end of the day, what did you learn today, and have some prizes. And then in the middle, you might have some other type of gamified elements that are not giveaways or prizes.

But maybe it’s a you know, pick a team, pick a group in a breakout room, and create your own quest. That’s another gamified element. Here’s your simple marketing plan, work together, but you pick the people you want to work with. And here’s what we want you to do. And oh, by the way, we’ve got some judges in the back of the room on my team. And they’re going to pick the best marketing plan based on this workshop. And that team is going to get something.


Mary Nunaley 23:54 

Absolutely. Huh.


Mostafa Hosseini  23:58 

Very nice. I guess one thing I’m thinking is like, how else can I give me five different parts of our course, luck and everything we get them to people to do is to post in our Facebook group to get feedback on their marketing, idols and names and whatnot. Which to me is to me that’s good. Am I correct is that say that’s a gaming gimmick?


Mary Nunaley 24:20 

It is somewhat of a game gimmick, but you like take it a step further. And if you’re really trying to build engagement in the Facebook group. And you know, if you look at Facebook, they have some of their own badges, so to speak about, you know, most frequent poster visual posts or whatever.

But if you create something that is tied to the community that you want to build, and recognize people for their contributions to the community, and then if you wanted to add that point system onto it, maybe you build a little virtual store where they can redeem their points for product services that you already have that you’re ready on.

offer that you’re ready to sell. But it’s like, okay, if you’re in my group for a year, and you’re you post every single day, something meaningful. Now, there’s little stuff on the back end, but you can run Facebook reports or whatever to help you with that, you know, each one of those meaningful posts earns you five points, you can now trade those in at our store for a book for a discount on a workshop for a.

And so now your community is trying to earn something. Yeah, but you’re also having the community set, the tone of this is an engaged community, we help each other. And you’re going to find some of the more competitive people going, oh, I want to, I want to be the one that’s at the top of list. And then each month, if you say, here’s our top 10 posters, or here’s our top 10.

It’s like a mini leaderboard within your group. That’s another way to really do an extended strategy.


Mostafa Hosseini  25:55 

Love it, love it. And I think when it comes to let’s say, Facebook, people, including myself, have Facebook groups with lots of people in it, that are not engaged. And then find finding a way to game five to get people to connect, do things be active post comment, like, share and the rest of it by?

How do you go about tracking their points? Is there like a software system that tracks them? Or do you have to do it manually, like


Mary Nunaley 26:23 

so in Facebook, on the back end, as an admin of a group, you can actually pull a report that shows how many people posted how often top frequency top posters, so you could use that as a baseline, you could do an honor system and just have people. The other thing going back to bringing like a dormant group back to life, is create a digital scavenger hunt within your Facebook group.

So if you’re using like an education group, where you’ve got units and stuff, say, hey, for the month of September, we’re going to do a group scavenger hunts. Here’s 10 things you got to find in the group. And that could include like, if you know, some of the people in the group and they’re open to it, like I would reach out instead of just saying, oh, yeah, people are going to just start harassing you.

But find out something like, Okay, which of the people has been in the group the longest? Put it in your answer sheet, who lives in Outer Mongolia? Put it on your answer sheet, you know, who participates in this annual scavenger hunt every year?

Put it on, you know, so that’s, now they’re starting to get to know each other. And then you say everybody’s submit. Maybe it’s a Google form. You say, Okay, submissions are ending at this day, then you look at it, everyone who’s got all of the right answers, then you go to the little spinner wheel, and you do a drawing in the group to say, Okay, here’s the 15 people out of the 100, who played the got all of the answers, right? Here’s what the prizes.

And if you do that consistently, maybe every quarter or so for the first time, you’re probably not going to get a lot of engagement because people like what the heck is going on. But as they see that you are consistent, regular, have a strategy, more people start to get into that snowball, and eventually, you’re going to build that engagement.


Mostafa Hosseini  28:18 

Absolutely. Love it. Love it. I’m really locked out that strategy of this scavenger hunt in a Facebook group who who is doing this, alright, that’s their name. And then you could this is something you could do maybe even on a weekly, monthly, it’s within your group to get people to get to know each other. Really nice. What are some of some big mistakes that people make when it comes to gamification?


Mary Nunaley 28:48 

Great question. So I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is to not think through their strategy. It’s just like, Oh, I heard gamification, and I’m just gonna throw spaghetti on the wall and see what happens. Uh huh. You’ve really got to go through that strategy of who’s my audience? What do I want them to do? How am I going to reward them? Because there’s nothing worse than saying, we’re going to do this, and I’m guilty of this myself, I’m getting better at it. We’re going to do this and then life happens, or nobody plays and it’s like, wah, wah, wah. So people then lose their confidence in you.


Mostafa Hosseini  29:22 

So the questions were, who’s my audience? What do I want them to do? Is that next right?


Mary Nunaley 29:26 

What’s the action I want them to take?


Mostafa Hosseini  29:29 

What’s the action? Action I want them to take


Mary Nunaley 29:34 

and and how am I going to reward them for taking that action?


Mostafa Hosseini  29:37 

Thank what is the reward? Do I need to set set an end goal like what do I want? What what what do they want to get out of it and what do I want to get out of it?


Mary Nunaley 29:49 

So you definitely want to set an end goal of what you want to get out of it. Because if you don’t know what you want, how are you going to decide what action they need to take? So it’s very similar to marketing, you know, when you talk about calls to action, well, if you don’t know what you want that person to do when they come to your website, you’re never going to get the result that we want.

So even when you’re gamifying, it’s like, what do I want to do?

Okay, well, this month, I want to increase the number of people in my group. So maybe I build a gamified strategy for my group to say, hey, my goal is to increase the size of the group by 50% in the next three months.

So here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re going to do this, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do this, and here’s how you’re going to benefit and here’s how you’re going to possibly be rewarded.


Mostafa Hosseini  30:38 

Very interesting. Wow, this is this is obviously a lot broader than, than Dan, I think, where people I guess generally think, you know, I figure sometimes I’m not alone in the way I think. Am I the only crazy person who thinks this way?

Usually, it’s like, no, you’re not. And sometimes it takes five years for me to realize that I’m not alone. But I’ve come to an agreement or agreement with myself to say that, if I feel or think a certain way, there are probably other people who think the


Mary Nunaley 31:14 

same. Exactly, yes.


Mostafa Hosseini  31:17 

As entrepreneurs are not as lonely creatures that we are, if we, if we make peace with that one sentence, I think life becomes a lot easier.


Mary Nunaley 31:26 

I would agree.


Mostafa Hosseini  31:29 

What are some big no no’s around gamification? It’s like, do not do this. Are there any stupid mistakes that maybe you have made? Or you know, people are making that you’re like, do not do this? Yeah, I know, you said you gotta have your strategies there anything else.


Mary Nunaley 31:44 

So the other thing is not getting so stuck on one technique, or one thing, able to say, You know what, this isn’t producing the result that I wanted, expected or thoughts. And so I’m a big advocate of saying, give yourself a deadline, like if it’s your first time doing anything, gamified don’t give up after a day. But if after 30 days, or 60 days, it’s just crickets nothing’s happening.

]It’s time to go back and relook at and go, Okay. Let me go talk to some of those key people in my group or in my audience to say, here’s what I was trying to do. Why didn’t you? Or what could I have done better or something like that. But oftentimes, we get so stuck in the like, here’s what I have to do. And I’m not giving up. It’s like a dog with a bone.

I’m not gonna let it go. Because I’m going to get that result no matter what it’s like, sometimes you’re not.


Mostafa Hosseini  32:39 

And correct me if I’m wrong. Here’s another mistake that I have made. And that is copying something that someone else is doing and thinking that’s going to work for me. Because they sat down and they strategize around there. I’m like, Oh, that looks good. So I’m gonna try. And then I’m probably fail miserably in trying to figure out, we just wasted so much money. That doesn’t work.


Mary Nunaley 32:58 

Yes. I mean, so looking at it as a model is helpful. But then you’ve got to step back and say, what parts of it apply to my business? And what things do I need to change? Because guess what, if I took your strategy, my audience is completely different than your audience.

So there might have been things that worked. But if our audiences are different, or players are different, it’s not gonna work, because you’re going after a completely different thing. Now, I could call you up and say, Hey, Mostafa, tell me about how you came up with this strategy. Here’s what I’m thinking, what do you think? That’s a good way to look at it?


Mostafa Hosseini  33:33 

Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, can you tell us about the gift that you’re sharing with people? And your ebook?


Mary Nunaley 33:44 

Sure. So I’m gonna preface this by saying everything I teach people about interactivity and lead magnets, and having a really good lead magnet is total opposite of what’s in my book. So please give me some grace on that. I am also a former educator.

And one of the things that I do in this ebook is help you walk through what is what are the basics of gamification? What do I mean by these things?

And what are a couple of simple things that you can do? Rather than giving you a short interactive lead magnet, I want to reinforce the theory that we’ve just talked about in the book.

So then you can go out and start applying it and have that confidence of okay, now I understand like I heard it, they talked about it. Now I’m reading it, and now I’ve got some actionable steps I can take, then you’re ready to move into that next phase, which is a more interactive lead magnet that I could offer you.


Mostafa Hosseini  34:39 

Interesting. Yeah, I think gamify lead magnets is is crucial because a lot of lead magnets are boring. And people just downloaded do nothing with it. And then generally, what I’ve seen is a lot of marketers and salespeople try to follow up with a series of emails that a lot of people don’t open again. But I think that, but Well, here’s the thing.

 I think gamification is something that is hardwired in our brain, I would agree from, from childhood. I mean, we are dying for acceptance and recognition and rewards and points. Because we’ve been hardwired since we were very little, if you be a good boy, be a good girl, you’re gonna get a cookie, you’re gonna get your toy, right, you’re gonna collect your money that I give you. That’s what I do in my kit, he gets 10 bucks a week.

And then before I know it, he has 100 bucks, 200 bucks, he can go redeem to buy whatever he wants. Right? So he’s learning to do that. And that’s something that I think people will absolutely take action on. And it makes a huge difference, like, oh, he does the engagement level that we were talking about. Yeah. And,


Mary Nunaley 35:52 

you know, again, that more interactive, so think about your normal lead magnet, that PDF that people exchange their name and email for this download that they may or may not ever read. If you’ve got a lead magnet that’s gamified, or interactive, it’s short, it’s to the point, they’re picking the sections of the lead magnet that most apply to them.

That’s giving you data to and it’s telling your audiences like oh, okay, this is kind of cool. It doesn’t have to be a 15 page PDF, it could be a one page, where I click, I watch a video, I take an action. I’m ready for the next one. And they’re more likely to share it with friends and family members, too, because now they’re having fun.


Mostafa Hosseini  36:38 

Very interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s, it’s all about fun and engagement. And if it’s boring, it’s like, I’m not gonna do it. Yeah. I don’t want to sit around and engage in some boring business interaction, or, I mean, if I’m taking a course online, and I here’s why. I think most courses that people buy, don’t even open it. It’s because it’s boring. It’s not gamified. Right?


Mary Nunaley 37:05 

Well, or there’s no, there’s no type of interaction built into it. So that is a flaw with the hosting systems that are out there where a lot of them can only host video and text files. Yeah, there are some systems out there that will like I’m a Thinkific.

Expert. So we mentioned that in my intro. Yep. I think if it does allow you to host interactive html5 content, so you can make your course more than just videos and text. And so you can have scenarios and games and stuff built in, where your students are going, oh, like one of my most popular one is a pathogens game, where you gotta like, have a trivia game and you’re answering questions about pathogens that we built for client.


Mostafa Hosseini  37:49 

Oh, that’s another thing. There’s a


Mary Nunaley 37:51 

timer. And it’s just like, okay, you know, you’ve got 10 seconds to answer this question. And then, you know, if you get it wrong, you have until the timer runs out. And so these are for salespeople, and they’re just like, oh, this is cool. I’m gonna go back and do it again. They’re learning without realizing that they’re learning.


Mostafa Hosseini  38:07 

Absolutely. Now I know you’re, I’m getting light bulb after light bulb. I know, it’s like, that’s why a lot of manufacturers have their own build your own thing. feature on their website, like you can build your own car, build your own sign, build your own. Your own thing. Yeah, that’s a way to gamify


Mary Nunaley 38:31 

I had to gamify to get that interaction. And then also, it’s giving your audience the product that they want it exactly. Here’s what I want. Yeah. Within parameters. I mean, like, there’s certain things that everybody has to have.


Mostafa Hosseini  38:44 

Oh, yeah. Good be proud of and be like, Oh, custom design it for me. And it’s got my name on it. And


Mary Nunaley 38:49 

exactly. So you can do that with some of the learning management systems that are out there as well.


Mostafa Hosseini  38:55 

Very interested in the reward is my picture my name or my own thing that comes? Yeah, my war


Mary Nunaley 39:02 

it’s, it’s, it’s that the digital confetti that you get, it’s the you’ve completed the course and you’ve accrued enough points. Now you can go into the store, and you can get your next course for $25 off or something like that.


Mostafa Hosseini  39:16 

I think once they’ve done that, they’re a lot more likely to brag about it and share it with the whole world saying exactly, look at me, look what I built. Come here and do your own thing. Yeah.


Mary Nunaley 39:28 

Oh, and look what I’ve learned and look at how I’m applying it and know I had fun in the process.


Mostafa Hosseini  39:39 

Beauty huh? I’m thinking, let me get some feedback for you. I mean, selfish here. Sure. And the people that are watching or listening could probably benefit from this. I’m thinking of giving points. We got six modules in our in our course.

If you could say some luck for every module where you sit through the whole thing, you get five points, right? So if you’re here, through all six of them, you’re going to get 830 points, five points for each would be a gamification thing.


Mary Nunaley 40:08 

That would be a very basic level of gamification. Yeah. So not knowing the content of your course and not wanting to get deep into the weeds and put my instructional design hat on. In those modules, is it more than just a video?


Mostafa Hosseini  40:23 

Oh, it’s live, there’s a lot happening.


Mary Nunaley 40:26 

Okay, well, because what you could do is reward them for each of the different things like, if you watch the video, you get five points. If you post in our Facebook group in response to this question, you get x if you so it, again, goes back to what’s the action that you want your audience to take, and how are you going to reward them,


Mostafa Hosseini  40:46 

okay, and what the reward and what they’re going to do on what they can redeem those points on.


Mary Nunaley 40:52 

Exactly. And sometimes the best reward in an online class is something that has, and this is going to sound really weird, because I’m having a hard time putting the words together. Like let’s say that if I wanted to book an hour consulting with you, and your rate is $200 an hour, I earn enough points in your class that I get a complimentary one hour call with you. Exactly. But it’s got a value attached to it. It’s like because my, my clients pay me 200 500 $1,000 an hour, however, you took the time and energy to do all of this.

 And here’s what you can do a $5 Amazon card, you’ve earned an hour of my time, which is very valuable. And you could talk to me about whatever you want.


Mostafa Hosseini  41:40 

Yeah. Oh, there, there are a lot of things that could be a reward. That’s very interesting, very interesting.


Mary Nunaley 41:45 

But you know, that might be the higher level reward, you know, the little rewards might be the Amazon card, or you know, the other one, maybe their featured, feature Facebook live their featured guest in your group. And they get a 15 minute interview.


Mostafa Hosseini  41:58 

Yeah. Fantastic. Now gang gang, if you haven’t got up, I put the link here in the comments of the show. And in the description of the show, go grab how to gamify your lead magnet ebook, Mary is generously sharing her her ebook with us where you could learn how to gamify your lead magnet, because most lead magnets, if not all of the ones that I’ve seen are just boring is boring gets.

By adding this gamification component to it, you could make it live and interactive and give it energy and increase here’s what’s important. increase your conversion rates, right? At the end of the day, we’re doing all this gamification and engagement and the rest of it to build conversions. We’re running a business and we have to make don’t forget this, we have to make money. Right?

I marry here’s what, correct me if I’m wrong. But I think people get stuck on the gamification aspect and forget the business aspect of this. Can you give us your thoughts on that?


Mary Nunaley 43:05 

Yeah. And you’re right, you’re spot on. And that’s why I really advocate that you come up with a strategy first, before you start putting gamified elements to it. So again, what are my business goals? Who’s my audience? What action do I want them to take, and the action you want them to take should tie back to your business goals.

So if my business goal is to have five new potential leads a week, then the action that I want them to take should be something that drives a potential lead. And then I’m going to reward them for taking the action by putting them in a random draw, make it having them play a game, choosing whether they want to book a call with me or buy a product on my website, depending on what your products and services are.

You know, like, if I’m selling lipstick, I might say, Oh, I just did this interactive lead magnet, I want that purple lipstick, if that’s a low price purchase, so you don’t have a long sales cycle.

Or oh, I want a beauty consultation with you. I’m going to book a call. But if you don’t know what your business goal is, then everything you do wrong, gamification is going to be fun. But you’re not going to move your business forward.


Mostafa Hosseini  44:16 

You got it? Yeah. So and a prime example that I’m thinking is people that post and tried to engage their Facebook group members, but there’s no conversion strategy. On the back. It’s like, alright, it’s a promo day. Alright, great.

 Here is the tip day, here’s the this and that day, and it doesn’t really do anything for my business. I’m just spending a bunch of time making posts engaging people that leads to nothing for my business.


Mary Nunaley 44:44 

Exactly. So have that strategy. So if tip day is good, that’s okay. And how is it going to help you build your community build your business now if my goal is I need a 400 person Facebook group, then having those tips stuff might make a lot of sense. If my goal is new leads, new sales, new conversions, new whatever, I need a different strategy.


Mostafa Hosseini  45:08 

Fantastic. Now, Mary, where can people find out more about you? We shared the link. And if they would just want to reach out and say, Hey, I really need to pick your brain because you really got something going on here.


Mary Nunaley 45:21 

Sure. So easiest way to find me is either on Facebook or LinkedIn, Mary, nunley or also on Facebook, the lavender Dragon team. So you know, you can watch all of our videos and stuff there as well.


Mostafa Hosseini  45:34 

Beauty, that’s a group. That’s a page, a business page. All right, beautiful. Lovely. So if you search for her name on Facebook, and LinkedIn, you will reach out to her now. Let me ask you some personal questions. Uh huh. What is some new thing that you have tried recently, a new


Mary Nunaley 45:53 

thing that I’ve tried recently creating a ship out of a potato?


Mostafa Hosseini  45:59 

Wow, tell me about that.


Mary Nunaley 46:02 

So we happen to be talking during Gish week. Gish is the Greatest International Scavenger Hunt. It’s a week long scavenger hunt that I’ve played for 10 years now. And there’s about 200, and some items that we as a team are trying to do. And like tomorrow, I’m trying to get my hair cut at a dog groomers. Um, so it’s just like, really weird, unusual things. And so that’s probably the newest thing that I’ve learned. Love it.


Mostafa Hosseini  46:32 

But I’m gonna have to give that a shot. It’s got to say, did you have to learn how to do it? Yes. So


Mary Nunaley 46:41 

I spent a little bit of time on Google, I had to learn how to carve a potato. And what I discovered is that the potato will float unless it’s in very salty water.


Mostafa Hosseini  46:52 

It will or a one float. It won’t


Mary Nunaley 46:54 

float unless the water is salty.


Mostafa Hosseini  46:57 

Why do you need to have it floating? Because it’s a chip? Oh, okay. Got it.


Mary Nunaley 47:03 

And part of the task was to have it float.


Mostafa Hosseini  47:07 

Very interesting. There was a group of people who are building all this ships, and they had to,


Mary Nunaley 47:15 

there’s several 1000 people participating in the scavenger hunt. And it ends the Saturday so on Sunday morning, if you look for the hashtag, GIS H, you will see people from around the globe posting some of the many things that we’ve done like I’m, I’m going to be making a pair of socks out of dryer lint.


Mostafa Hosseini  47:35 

Oh, my God. That’s it. That’s a hell of a gamification going on.


Mary Nunaley 47:44 

It is amazing.


Mostafa Hosseini  47:45 

Oh my god, if you could get people from around the globe to play with you that that’s, that’s


Mary Nunaley 47:50 

yeah, no, it’s insane. And people like look forward to this every year.


Mostafa Hosseini  47:53 

Oh, my God. All right. Love it. What are your top two or three books that have made a massive difference in your life for business?


Mary Nunaley 48:04 

Great question. So number one would be Ukai Chows. actionable gamification. That’s, that’s really where I got the the nuts and bolts and I had the opportunity to work with the gentlemen as well. On a personal level, I would say American Gods by Neil Gaiman, American Gods, American Gods by Neil Gaiman. So much better than the Amazon show. So the book is just incredible. I read it every single year.


Mostafa Hosseini  48:32 

Alright, is it a is it a is it a business book? Is it a barrio,


Mary Nunaley 48:35 

it’s a fiction book. But it really forces you to think about your perceptions of the world and how you view people and how they interact with each other. And how letting go of the old ways is sometimes necessary. And when we hang on to the old ways for too long, things fall apart.


Mostafa Hosseini  48:54 

Well, is it a thick one, or it’s not that thick?


Mary Nunaley 48:57 

Okay. And if you like audio books, I highly recommend the audio book because the author reads it. And he’s got this amazing British accent and it’s just like you just listen. What else you got a third 1/3? One would be the go giver.


Mostafa Hosseini  49:14 

Oh giver. I actually interviewed Bob Berg here about that. So that I read the Go Giver, probably nine or 10 times.


Mary Nunaley 49:23 

I’ve read it several times, too. And every time I read it, I pick up something new. So I would say that would be that would be my other top business book.


Mostafa Hosseini  49:31 

Amazing, amazing, amazing. Mary, if you had a an ad on the internet, on Facebook or Google where everyone on the planet who has access to the web could see it. Mm hmm. What would your past message for the people of the earth be?


Mary Nunaley 49:46 

Engagement matters?


Mary Nunaley 49:50 



Mary Nunaley 49:51 



Mostafa Hosseini  49:53 

I’m not gonna ask you more about that because we’ve been talking about it for a good chunk of time now. Yes. engagement does matter. What’s one advice that made a massive difference in your life or business?


Mary Nunaley 50:08 

Don’t cry at work?


Mostafa Hosseini  50:10 

Don’t cry at work. Uh huh. Tell us more about that.


Mary Nunaley 50:14 

So when I was first starting out as a restaurant manager, and was just very, very frustrated by my boss, and I was, I don’t know, maybe 20 years old or something, I just like started crying. And in the restaurant, there’s nowhere to hide. And so my manager came up, and she’s like, if you’re ever going to make it in this world, and this is back in the 70s, and 80s, where it was really a male dominated, hardcore, you know, what a different world than we are in right now. Like, if you’re going to be a success in business, don’t ever let them see you cry. Interesting.


Mostafa Hosseini  50:45 

Very interesting. What advice would you give your 20 year old self?


Mary Nunaley 50:55 

If it’s not fun, don’t do it.


Mostafa Hosseini  51:00 

What’s the story behind that?


Mary Nunaley 51:01 

It’s pretty much my motto has been for my whole life. It’s when it’s not fun. And, and I understand and I, I know that life is going to have its ups and downs, and you’re going to have good days and bad days. But overall, if you’re not having fun, if you’re not enjoying what you’re doing, consistently over the long haul, it’s time to move on to something else.


Mostafa Hosseini  51:21 

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, what you do, it must be fun, it must intrigue you and keep you or make you happy. And if it’s not, then, yeah, you know,


Mary Nunaley 51:31 

and it’s when I was my younger self, I took things so much more seriously. It’s like, ah, the world’s gonna end because it’s an app. And it’s like, no, no, have fun.


Mostafa Hosseini  51:40 

Fantastic. Married, this has been an absolute amazing conversation. I feel like we could go on forever. And is there anything that you’d like to add that we didn’t mention? Before we wrap up?


Mary Nunaley 51:53 

I would just say, don’t be afraid to try something new.


Mostafa Hosseini  51:56 

Love it. Love it. And I’m thinking to add to that, I think in the gamification world, there are so many things that you could do that. There are so many things you could do. And I guess you got to test a whole bunch to see what works for you what works for the customers.

And at the end of the day, which one of them will produce results for you business wise? That’s it? Yeah, I mean, by talking to someone like, Mary, you would reduce your cost with time and money. But I’m guessing there’s still a testing period involved? Exactly. We don’t. I mean, as a business coach, I don’t have a magic wand, where I could be like, hey, here it is, fix it.


Mary Nunaley 52:41 

That’s it. I could say let’s work on your strategy. But it’s up to you to implement it, and know your customers better than I do. But I can say if this is what you’re trying to achieve. Here’s some things that I know have worked for other people in similar situations. What do you want to try?


Mostafa Hosseini  52:56 

Yeah. And then to add to that, I think working with with someone like you, with an outside perspective, with experience, you can see from outside and say, hey, if based on my experience, and based what I see within your customers, here are one or two or three options that will are more likely to produce more results or


Mary Nunaley 53:14 

exactly. And then you’ve got to do the work.


Mostafa Hosseini  53:18 

Yes. Oh, yeah. Obvious. Good. Thank you very much. You’re so amazing. I look forward to working with you. As to those of you who are watching or listening, gamification is definitely important. If you got any, if you’re teaching, if you’ve got any courses where people sign up, and they don’t sign up for it, if you think that people because here’s what I, my my experience, I don’t have pre recorded courses, because I believe that people are not gonna go through it based on some stats that I’ve seen elsewhere and my own experiences. I’ve signed up for courses and I haven’t done anything with them because it’s just, it was just boring. I’m not gonna do it alone. And especially if it’s just like, watch this guy, talk to him block for a good hour and a half to 10 hours. Right? So if it’s gamified and if it’s engaging, and there you’re gonna see a lot more results and pushing versions out of it. Alright gang. Mayor in London only. Thank you, Mary. My name is Mostafa Hosseini you’re listening to daily conference for entrepreneurs. We will see you next week with their next episode. earn another amazing guest Have a great week. And enjoy your time.


Mary Nunaley 54:34 

Bye bye



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